Motor Oil Quality

[Bob Weiss]

This is the information Ken was talking about at the meeting last Thursday.


http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/engine/flat_tappet_cam_tech/index.html

If you go to Comp Cams Web site you can see under Lubricants the 12oz break-in oil additive I think Ken was talking about.

Ken if you are on the web -Please confirm

Also, here is another great oil web site that has various discussions on the Zinc issue.

http://theoildrop.server101.com/forums/ubbthreads.php

Bob Weiss

[Glennm27]

The Hotrod.com article is very intreresting. I have been thinking about changing the cam in my Corvette and this is making me think I need to learn even more than I have so far...

I am not sure but it looks like GM has the below pictured additive that can be added to the crankcase to help with this depleted Zinc
dialkyl dithiophosphate problem.

http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/engine/HRDP_0606_05_z+flat_tappet_cam_tech+assembly_lube. jpg

I don't know the difference between Flat Tappet cams and Roller cams but it sounds as though the flat tappet cams especially have problems with this new oil spec.

Thanks for that post Bob.... I have alot more to learn.. :rolleyes:

[carboman]

Glenn,

Cams are always installed with special lube to prevent wear on startup. Roller lifters and rockers as the modern way to go for valve trains. The old days of mechanical lifters are gone for engines like the LS series motors in Vettes.

These modern valve trains operate with far less friction and are capable of high rpm limits without valve float or failure. Technology is a wonderful thing.

Next time you're over remind me to break out some of my old GM performance reference books.

[Bob Weiss]

For those of us with vintage corvettes (ie: Flat tappets) this is critical info. Also, what about the daily drivers we all have that don't have roller cam/lifters??

When you wipe out a cam-all that ground up lobe and lifter goes somewhere--like your crank mains and journals. Pop goes the engine !!

Glenn, the article from Hot Rod has pictures of flat tappet lifters on the first page. A roller lifter is somewhat similar but has a roller on the bottom that rides on the cam lobe. (yes I know this is a big simplification).

Bob

[Glennm27]

Thanks Bob & Mark.. ;bt

[Bob Weiss]

I think Ken bought out a significant issue. we should all add the GM recommended additive to all of our vehicles.

Bob

[carboman]

I've been reading the links Bob posted as well as others. One thing for sure is owners of older Vettes should be putting some additives into their oil as a precaution. It appears there is no issue with modern engines with roller type valve trains or OHC engines. The big question is which additives? An assembly lube may cause more harm than good long term. In most cases it is suggested that newly rebuilt motors have their oil changed after break in to get the assembly lube out since it tends to clog filters.

I searched but could not find any info from GM on the subject other than it appears GM is moving towards Mobil 1 for all it's cars.

I've sent messages to a couple of friends that know far more than I do on the subject and will post whatever helpful info they provide.

Stay tuned.

[Glennm27]

Ollie, where are you?? I'd like your input on this post.

[carboman]

Ollie, where are you?? I'd like your input on this post.

I sent him a message already.

[Bob Weiss]

Mark, the Hot Rod article on page 2 right side suggests 4 Ozs with each oil change.

Bob

[DanS711]

Glenn,

Here is a good link to a quick primer on all type of lifter and how they work

http://www.thirdgen.org/sbc-camshafts-primer

DS

[carboman]

Dan,

Great article! It really explains the differences well.


Bob,

I saw what you were talking about and for older cars that are not regularly driven it's probably fine. I remember adding valve lubricant to some older high performance cars since unleaded gas could cause problem in the valve seats,

I'd be reluctant to add assembly lube in a newer car. There should be no need for it anyway.

[Bob Weiss]

Where is Slapshot when you need him !!

Mark-- I guess to each his own !!

Valve Lubricant was instead of Lead in the fuel. Different animal all together.

Bob

[92RAGTOP]

Valvoline Synthetic Racing Oil is designed for racing application only. Its unique formulation contains premium synthetic base stocks and advanced additive technology to reduce internal friction and help enhance horsepower output. Available at NAPA.
Designed for high-performance racing engines
Proven to provide more horsepower than the most widely used engine oils in grassroots racing
Helps increase horsepower through advanced friction modifiers balanced with reduced detergent levels
Contains increased amounts of zinc for extra engine protection
Not for use in wet clutch applications

[Silver O Six]

No problem with Mobile One in the newer cars......right?:o

[carboman]

Where is Slapshot when you need him !!

Mark-- I guess to each his own !!

Valve Lubricant was instead of Lead in the fuel. Different animal all together.



Bob

Pardon my French but no S#$t. I was just making an analogy.

[carboman]

No problem with Mobile One in the newer cars......right?:o

Not according to GM. They are making Mobil 1 standard in all Caddys for 08 and it's standard in many other GM products now. Acura has made it standard in the new turbo motor they are usung in the RDX sport ute.

[DanS711]

Valvoline Synthetic Racing Oil is designed for racing application only. Its unique formulation contains premium synthetic base stocks and advanced additive technology to reduce internal friction and help enhance horsepower output. Available at NAPA.

Designed for high-performance racing engines
Proven to provide more horsepower than the most widely used engine oils in grassroots racing
Helps increase horsepower through advanced friction modifiers balanced with reduced detergent levels
Contains increased amounts of zinc for extra engine protection
Not for use in wet clutch applications

One thing you need to be careful with is the lower level of detergent in racing oil. May not be ideal for engines that are driven short distances and around town.

DS

[carboman]

Here's one experts answer on the oil question from Chevytalk.com



Bottom line.... engines that have roller lifters, not worry about the lack of ZDDP

Everything with a flat tappet cam has a problem.

Good news... GM 12345501 oil additive 4oz bottle and use Pennzoil API SM rating.

You do not want to use Rotella since its 15-40 and a bit too heavy for cold starts.

[Glennm27]

Here's one experts answer on the oil question from Chevytalk.com



Bottom line.... engines that have roller lifters, not worry about the lack of ZDDP

Everything with a flat tappet cam has a problem.

Good news... GM 12345501 oil additive 4oz bottle and use Pennzoil API SM rating.

You do not want to use Rotella since its 15-40 and a bit too heavy for cold starts.

http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/engine/HRDP_0606_05_z+flat_tappet_cam_tech+assembly_lube. jpg

[jonmentzer]

i,ll add my two cents.last year when i did the motor in my 76, wayne markovich gave me a service letter from comp cams referring to this issue. it said to use additives or shell rotella 15 40 for break in, this was for flat tappet cams only. ill look for the letter and bring it to the next meeting, but im sure most of you will find it before then. i,ve put about 2000 miles on my car and no problems so far.

[Bob Weiss]

Mark,

I know you know about the lead in fuel-just giving a little more insight to those that may not???

Bob

[Richy]

Just realized that this is the most active thread about non-alcoholic liquids since the board was started.

[carboman]

Here's the response I got from a trusted source. This only applies to older , non-roller lifter equipped engines.

Hey Mark,

I did some more digging on this oil/lifter wear topic. I found more info than I cared to learn but useful.

Seems the quality of lifters went south in 2001 as a result of four companies going bellyup in the USA. The ONLY quality lifter being made today is GM - although the construction is different from when these cars were new. They have adopted a two piece design with a proprietary welding technique. So the antiwear qualities of the lifter heel are maintained.

The camshafts are not the problem, since there are only TWO manufactures in the USA making cam cores and EVERYONE is using them.

Here are some specs on the oil ZDDP content that I found very useful and will hopefully help the CT members.

The info will be listed in this order:

API classification or Specific Brand; year; Zinc content; Phosphorous content

SM 1996 0.130 0.120
SJ 2001 0.110 0.100

SL 2004 0.110 0.100
SM 2005 0.087 0.080

Cosworth Racing Oil 2006 0.125 0.115
Shell Rotella Oil 2006 0.140 0.130
Pennzoil Racing 20-50 2006 0.196 0.180
Quaker State Q Racing 2006 0.200 0.180

Neither Racing Oil will meet auto mfgs guidelines which is not to be taken as bad news. Because of the increased ZDDP - the auto mfgs will not certify it. A case where the oil offers better protection and a slight drop in MPG since it does not contain the friction modifiers found in the API classification SM engine oils.

For the money, the best deal is the Rotella.
The only hitch is the 15-40 weight - which is not recommended for cold climates.

Hope you find this useful.....

[Bob Weiss]

Mark,

Any opinion on the 4oz Gm Assembly Oil additive???

Bob

[carboman]

Mark,

Any opinion on the 4oz Gm Assembly Oil additive???

Bob


It's probably the same type of assembly lube as many companies sell. I would not use it for daily drivers but to your C2 it's fine. I assume you have the oil and filter changed at least once a year so it's probably fine.

[Bob Weiss]

Mark, This is Assembly oil. The Lube is the grease sustance you smear on the cam and lifters, etc. when installing a new cam. Assembly oil is different. I am not sure of the viscosity but it is not like the grease/molasses (although it might be close today!!) that assembly LUBE is.

Please ask your buddy if you wouldn't mind.

[carboman]

Mark, This is Assembly oil. The Lube is the grease sustance you smear on the cam and lifters, etc. when installing a new cam. Assembly oil is different. I am not sure of the viscosity but it is not like the grease/molasses (although it might be close today!!) that assembly LUBE is.

Please ask your buddy if you wouldn't mind.

I already discussed it with him and the pre-lube (as GM puts it, conjures up all sorts of bad jokes) is what he suggested using as additive in older, flat tappet equipped cars. It's pretty thick stuff but mixed into 5qts or so of oil it shouldn't be a problem. I'd suggesting mixing it with oil before pouring (or spooning at todays temps) it into the engine.

I guess if I were building a older style engine today I'd run roller lifters in it for sure.

[Glennm27]

A little more info, or maybe just more of the same on this topic.

Bob, you got me reading everything in sight. I don't think I have any worries with my car, but I am a bit reserved for now on changing my cam. I'm still reading and learning..

More Reading, click =====> HERE (http://www.svmgcc.org/tech_tips/oil_is_killing.htm)

[carboman]

Glenn,

Great find on the oil info. Of course British car guys should be using heaviest oil they can find so it doesn't leak out so easily.

If you get a new cam in your car it will still utilize roller lifters and I'd suggest going to hi-perf roller rockers at the same time. As long as assembly lube is used you should not have any issues.

[Richy]

Glenn,

Great find on the oil info. Of course British car guys should be using heaviest oil they can find so it doesn't leak out so easily.

Ordinarily,Mark,that would make sense,but as the original owner of a ' 72 TR6,
"when it stops leaking,it needs oil".Beats continually monitoring that messy dipstick.

[hcvone]

A little more info, or maybe just more of the same on this topic.

Bob, you got me reading everything in sight. I don't think I have any worries with my car, but I am a bit reserved for now on changing my cam. I'm still reading and learning..

More Reading, click =====> HERE (http://www.svmgcc.org/tech_tips/oil_is_killing.htm)

Glenn the shop I use, yes you know them, change cams like places change tires, with so many people running good synthetic oils problems are very rare, of course being installed and broken in correctly is a key as well. I see cams being changed to get more hp on the dyno, and many cams being changed out are on basic race cars making 800-1200 hp, and high hp street cars too. I would not worry one bit about having your cam changed, of course depending on who does it. :)