10% Ethanol

[FatherLarry]

10% Ethanol
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Has anyone used E10 in their Zs yet, and if so, have you had any problems? Do you see any benefits? I know Sunoco here on the eastcoast discontined 94 octane and now is offering 93 Octane with E10. Hess is still pure. I am worried about storage over the winter if I use the E10, as they say ethanol can corrode gas lines and destroy fuel injectors if the car isn't being used for a long period. I know ethanol increases octane and therefore may increase performance, however, there are too many "ifs". Also, gas economy is reduced by 28%. So if you're paying $3 a gal for premium mixed with E10, its really like paying about $3.99 a gal for reduced gas mileage.

This administration seems to be pushing it, but I don't see the benefit, only to large energy corporations.

[jim4242]

10% Ethanol
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Has anyone used E10 in their Zs yet, and if so, have you had any problems? Do you see any benefits? I know Sunoco here on the eastcoast discontined 94 octane and now is offering 93 Octane with E10. Hess is still pure. I am worried about storage over the winter if I use the E10, as they say ethanol can corrode gas lines and destroy fuel injectors if the car isn't being used for a long period. I know ethanol increases octane and therefore may increase performance, however, there are too many "ifs". Also, gas economy is reduced by 28%. So if you're paying $3 a gal for premium mixed with E10, its really like paying about $3.99 a gal for reduced gas mileage.

You may want to give Steve Spencer a call, he has some pretty specific recomendations on which fuels to use and not to use. He has seen many problems with the fuel gage sensors on newer vettes. He has done some personal research and it appears the problem is fuel related. The sensors are naturally under warranty, however, the tank has to be dropped to perform the repair, at least on the C5 I don't khow about the C6.

[C5pilot]

I haven't seen any good news on the subject except what the government spews out. I'm not sure about it increasing octane but I am sure it doesn't increase performance, it's actually less efficient than gasoline so you have to burn more of it. Here's a little info just to give you an idea of what the government is not telling you...

David Pimental, a leading Cornell University agricultural expert, has calculated that powering the average U.S. automobile for one year on ethanol (blended with gasoline) derived from corn would require 11 acres of farmland, the same space needed to grow a year's supply of food for seven people. Adding up the energy costs of corn production and its conversion into ethanol, 131,000 BTUs are needed to make one gallon of ethanol. One gallon of ethanol has an energy value of only 77,000 BTUs.

Corn production in the U.S. erodes soil about 12 times faster than the soil can be reformed, and irrigating corn mines groundwater 25 percent faster than the natural recharge rate of ground water. The environmental system in which corn is being produced is being rapidly degraded.

The approximately $1 billion a year in current federal and state subsidies (mainly to large corporations) for ethanol production are not the only costs to consumers, the Cornell scientist observes. Subsidized corn results in higher prices for meat, milk and eggs because about 70 percent of corn grain is fed to livestock and poultry in the United States. Increasing ethanol production would further inflate corn prices, Pimentel says, noting: "In addition to paying tax dollars for ethanol subsidies, consumers would be paying significantly higher food prices in the marketplace."

IMO, any attempt to reinvent a fossil fuel burning engine or hybrid only prolongs our dependence on petroleum. It will ultimately cost far more by investing in all these middle of the road fixes. Until you go solar or hydrogen you'll keep ending up at the same dead end. Personally, I don't think the problem is inventing or perfecting another source of power, it's what to do with all the unemployed workers once you find a cheap source of fuel.

[FatherLarry]

I haven't seen any good news on the subject except what the government spews out. I'm not sure about it increasing octane but I am sure it doesn't increase performance, it's actually less efficient than gasoline so you have to burn more of it. Here's a little info just to give you an idea of what the government is not telling you...

David Pimental, a leading Cornell University agricultural expert, has calculated that powering the average U.S. automobile for one year on ethanol (blended with gasoline) derived from corn would require 11 acres of farmland, the same space needed to grow a year's supply of food for seven people. Adding up the energy costs of corn production and its conversion into ethanol, 131,000 BTUs are needed to make one gallon of ethanol. One gallon of ethanol has an energy value of only 77,000 BTUs.

Corn production in the U.S. erodes soil about 12 times faster than the soil can be reformed, and irrigating corn mines groundwater 25 percent faster than the natural recharge rate of ground water. The environmental system in which corn is being produced is being rapidly degraded.

The approximately $1 billion a year in current federal and state subsidies (mainly to large corporations) for ethanol production are not the only costs to consumers, the Cornell scientist observes. Subsidized corn results in higher prices for meat, milk and eggs because about 70 percent of corn grain is fed to livestock and poultry in the United States. Increasing ethanol production would further inflate corn prices, Pimentel says, noting: "In addition to paying tax dollars for ethanol subsidies, consumers would be paying significantly higher food prices in the marketplace."

IMO, any attempt to reinvent a fossil fuel burning engine or hybrid only prolongs our dependence on petroleum. It will ultimately cost far more by investing in all these middle of the road fixes. Until you go solar or hydrogen you'll keep ending up at the same dead end. Personally, I don't think the problem is inventing or perfecting another source of power, it's what to do with all the unemployed workers once you find a cheap source of fuel.

Read this.http://www.ethanol.org/economy.html

[C5pilot]

It's all very nice. But it doesn't change the fact that they rely on tax incentives which they claim comes back to the consumer who paid for the whole process with their taxes anyway. They even hint at the clip I pasted above stating it's out of date and flawed. But they can't argue there are only 77,000 BTU's per gallon of Ethanol compared to 125,000 BTU's in mid grade gasoline. How in the world can they explain away all the extra Ethanol required to equal the energy in 1 gal of gas? For their claims to be true, Ethanol would have to be almost half the price of gas and it isn't. Not to mention, as more Ethanol plants come online, corn feed prices will rise and you'll pay for it in your groceries. They further forget to estimate the cost of the fossil fuel needed to produce the Ethanol (the plants won't burn ethanol because it's too expensive!). And finally they don't mention the rail and trucking costs needed since they can't use pipelines.

The only benefits besides the investors profit and local economy, is that it does burn cleaner. The sad part is they're not trying to sell it on it's merit, they're trying to exaggerate it's true value because of the conflicts in the Mid East and they know how much Americans want freedom at the pump. Well, it's gonna cost us. Mark my words... If and when things settle down in the Mid East, the whole Ethanol push will stop. This whole thing is driven by peoples fears with politicians and investors fanning the flames.

[carboman]

The really amusing part is that as we get closer to the elections in November suddendly gas prices are dropping and there was a major oil find in U.S. waters. What will things look like in December?

As for Ethanol it's all bull. Burning up more energy to make it than is contained in it make no sense at all. It's great if you're one of the big corporations that lobbied hard for it and are getting fat on our tax dollars. As soon as enough tax incentives are put in place to make solar power more attractive you'll see more homes going that way. One builder I've dealt with is building an entire community in CA that runs on solar. In fact each home will produce more energy than it comsumes and under CA law the power companies have to purchase the excess power back from the homeowner. Imagine Peco owing you money at the end of the month.

NJ has passed similar solar power laws and added some tax incentives. The pay back for a typical NJ home is approx 5 years. The way the modern solar systems are being used is they produce power all during the day of which the excess is sold back to the power companies and then the houses run off the grid at night. Doing it this way eliminates the need for costly power storage systems. You have to see it in action. It looks cool to see an electric meter going backwards.

Sorry for being so long winded.

[FatherLarry]

Ethanol (and methanol) do in fact have higher octane than straight gasoline (using the same RON method), and you are correct that it is less efficient than gasoline. Carrying things to the extreme, if it were possible to switch a car from running on straight gasoline to straight ethanol, the engine running on ethanol would need a richer air/fuel mixture to compensate for the lower BTU output. To a certain extent, all higher octane fuels have a lower BTU output (as compared for example, to pump gas). However, the BTU reduction in ethanol cannot be accounted for by octane alone. It is an inferior fuel. That said, ethanol does have one thing going for it - it burns cooler than gasoline. This is of little to no consequence in retrofitting an existing engine to run on ethanol. However, if engines were designed from scratch to run on ethanol, they could be made lighter and smaller (not requiring such extensive active and passive cooling). I'm not an expert on the subject, but it seems within the realm of possibility that lighter cars with less mass could potentially overcome the energy output disadvantage of ethanol, thus making it a viable fuel in the future.

[Silver O Six]

Good point Mark about the elections. Bush may be a lame duck but all on his
shredded coat tails are thinking about us now huh? December, $4.00 gas
and shortages.

[C5pilot]

However, if engines were designed from scratch to run on ethanol, they could be made lighter and smaller (not requiring such extensive active and passive cooling). I'm not an expert on the subject, but it seems within the realm of possibility that lighter cars with less mass could potentially overcome the energy output disadvantage of ethanol, thus making it a viable fuel in the future.

Reports show that if every gas vehicle in the US was converted to 100% Ethanol, it would require 97% of our total land area to grow enough crop. So exactly how small and lightweight will these new vehicles be?

To go back to one of your other questions, during the last gas crisis we used to stock gasohol to fuel our fleet. Whenever a truck would go in for a tune-up (which was often) the mechanic would tell us he's never seen carburetors so clean. Well, that's because the the alcohol cleaned everything from the gas tank forward until something got clogged. It also had a tendency to dry out all plastic and rubber and since the metal components were so clean they wore faster. On the upside, only brand new vehicles will run on E85 so they don't have to worry about clogging from stuff in their own tanks.

As gas stations introduce Ethanol into storage tanks you'll start seeing people having injector and filter problems as the crap starts loosening from the older underground tanks. Have you ever had to clean the varnish from your lawn mowers fuel bowl? Multiply that by, oh..., a million.

Great discussion FL. Thanks.

[YO-EL]

Did you know it costs more to make a penny than its actually worth?

[hcvone]

Did you know it costs more to make a penny than its actually worth?

That is true, and still them keep making them. :(

[Al Betz]

10% Ethanol
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Has anyone used E10 in their Zs yet, and if so, have you had any problems? Do you see any benefits? I know Sunoco here on the eastcoast discontined 94 octane and now is offering 93 Octane with E10. Hess is still pure. I am worried about storage over the winter if I use the E10, as they say ethanol can corrode gas lines and destroy fuel injectors if the car isn't being used for a long period. I know ethanol increases octane and therefore may increase performance, however, there are too many "ifs". Also, gas economy is reduced by 28%. So if you're paying $3 a gal for premium mixed with E10, its really like paying about $3.99 a gal for reduced gas mileage.

This administration seems to be pushing it, but I don't see the benefit, only to large energy corporations.


1. Alcohol has only about 70% the energy content of gasoline so if you use 10% alcohol with 90% gas your effective gas mileage reduction would be more like 3% not 30% (28%) so that is like paying 3.09 a gallon not 3.99.

2. Since the 10% alcohol is to replace the octane enhancer MTBE (which was used to replace Tetra Ethyl Lead) the octane is the same as it always was. If you are buying 93 you are getting 93

3. Corrosion who knows? Denatured ethanol is not as corrosive as methanol, but I wouldn't want either one in my drink.;ac

4. The good side is that you'll never have to worry about water in your gas again. :)

[Bob Weiss]

Car and Driver Magazine had a very informative article on Ethanol a few months ago. I am sure it is still available on their web site.

Bob Weiss

[kennedys22]

I have some info on E10 from a boating perspective. I agree with other posts that ethanol will actually decrease your mpg. A concern for boats is E10 does not react well to moisture. The alcohol tends to absorb the moisture. Worse yet, the gas can then degrade and the octane separates. A boat motor sucking gas from the bottom of a tank will get water and separated fuel and this will stop a motor. From the auto side I was informed that since cars frequently use gas and are not exposed to moisture these concerns were not as great. -Yes it will attack fiberglass tanks on old boats, old rubber lines, etc. I thought I heard today that E10 was out after 9/15 for winter??? I guess I'm going to a Hess station!

[FatherLarry]

I have some info on E10 from a boating perspective. I agree with other posts that ethanol will actually decrease your mpg. A concern for boats is E10 does not react well to moisture. The alcohol tends to absorb the moisture. Worse yet, the gas can then degrade and the octane separates. A boat motor sucking gas from the bottom of a tank will get water and separated fuel and this will stop a motor. From the auto side I was informed that since cars frequently use gas and are not exposed to moisture these concerns were not as great. -Yes it will attack fiberglass tanks on old boats, old rubber lines, etc. I thought I heard today that E10 was out after 9/15 for winter??? I guess I'm going to a Hess station!

Well said.

[C5pilot]

A concern for boats is E10 does not react well to moisture. The alcohol tends to absorb the moisture. Worse yet, the gas can then degrade and the octane separates. A boat motor sucking gas from the bottom of a tank will get water and separated fuel and this will stop a motor.

Ethanol helps gas absorb and suspend moisture which means any droplets already in your tank will slowly be removed. It's not going to deliver one gulp of water to your engine. In a case where water is a constant problem, it may actually solve some issues. One things for sure, you'd be going through more filter changes because the suspension will carry all kinds of stuff which normally stays put.

[Bob Weiss]

You should all read this article on Ethanol as previously mentioned from Car and Driver. You will find it MOST INTERESTING and INFORMATIVE.

http://www.caranddriver.com/features/11174/tech-stuff-ethanol-promises.html

Bob W.

[kennedys22]

You should all read this article on Ethanol as previously mentioned from Car and Driver. You will find it MOST INTERESTING and INFORMATIVE.

http://www.caranddriver.com/features/11174/tech-stuff-ethanol-promises.html

Bob W.

I hope this site works - good article from Salt Water Sportsman

http://www.saltwatersportsman.com/saltwater/boating/article/0,12746,1225630,00.html